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  CSPAN    Washington This Week    News/Business.  

    September 16, 2012
    2:00 - 4:12pm EDT  

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people at the company, the way we do compensation, we translate the amount of cash we want to get you into shares. if the shares are undervalued, you will get more shares for the amount of money we are willing to compensate you. i think the real question -- sure. some people will look at this and maybe some people will leave, but i think it is a great time for people to join and it is a great time for people to stay and double down and i think we are seeing that. this and maybe some people will leave, but i think it is a great time for people to join and it is a great time for people to stay and double down and i think we are seeing that. >> can we talk product now? [applause] they liked that answer. i want to talk about product. i have been rough on the company, as others have over mobile in the past. i said it was the achilles heel. i said some of your mobile products are the worst products i have seen in my life. >> we are very self critical, too. >> is mobile a strength and opportunity for facebook? or is it your weakness?
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>> it really is back to what i was saying before. mobile is -- there are going to be more users. each user is going to spend more time, and for the amount of time we spend, we will be making more money. it is pretty easy to paint the picture for all of those. more users in the world. more engagers. more users engaged on a daily basis. since we did the new version of the ios app, we have seen already the amount of feed stories that people consumed per user on a daily basis. we have shown that in addition to already been ahead on global engagement, there are huge things we can do that can move the needle on the. i am really optimistic, because you know mobil is a lot closer to tv then desktop. on desktop, for the past five or six years, we have had these right-hand columns, the ads. we have had a team that has worked largely in isolation to build this service that any product team at facebook can use.
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you are building a product. you can with these ads on the side of your product. with mobile, that will not be the answer. what we are seeing now is each of the product teams at facebook are taking ownership of that. we're seeing great mobile motivation products coming out. already with the mobile apps that we have, they are doing well. there's a huge opportunity. the question is getting their. there is no doubt that some of the stuff -- we have had a bunch of missteps on this. part of the first question that you asked me that i did not like it finished answering was whether the big mistakes we
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have made, and i am introspective about the last few years and i think of the big mistake we made as a company betting too much on html 5 as opposed to native. it just was not their. it is not that html 5 is that. in long-term excited about it. we have more people using mobile web facebook then the apps combined. there is no doubt we went for this approach. we built this internal framework we call faceweb, this idea would to take the infrastructure we built out for pushing code every day, and we can translate that into mobil development. would just not able to get equality that we wanted. we made the decision two years ago to go that direction.
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we took six months to build faceweb, if that approach going. we have another four months to decide we were not going to go that way it after we had committed. then we decided to go native. i think probably we will look back thinking that is one of the biggest mistakes, if not the biggest strategic mistake that we made. the ios app is out and the android app will be soon. >> i want to unpack that. you decided two years ago native was the way to go? >> no, two years ago was when we decided to go completely to html 5. in the beginning, because it was using the same web methodology, we would be able to improve on that really quickly. we work with up for a few months and into the conclusion that, hey, this is not going to
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get to the quality level that we want any time soon. the level of mobile experiences out there are so good. need to have something that is the highest quality level. the only way we will get there is to go native. that will be the approach going for. >> so that is the biggest mistake you made? staying too long? >> we have more usage on our side than on our apps altogether. that is not a slam. mobile is huge. but we could not get completely on a. ios and android, you could do so
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much better by doing native work, so we just had to do that. >> i tried it out and i wrote about. i thought it was amazing. was there a point before you launch the app that you were like, "oh, my god, this sucks?" >> we are very self critical. we spent the period of time -- we made the decision that we wanted to get this rewrite done as quickly as possible. there are things that we wanted to do that were not reflected in the current version, but just to execute on it well and simplify from an engineering perspective. we decided, hey, let's ship this as fast as possible. in parallel, other teams have been building features in apps that did not launch with the last release, because we wanted them to have the same features really fast now. over the coming weeks and months, i think we can expect to see a lot of the cool stuff that people have been working
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about over the last year, half year. i am really excited about the. >> will you be rewarding your users with a better app as well? >> a lot of the structure we billed for -- we built for ios, that has to be redone. is not pushing down a website like we did with faceweb. it will be ready when it is ready. >> and not before? >> hopefully, not before. >> somehow you have retooled the entire way you build
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products internally. you have seven groups -- you have separate groups. how has that changed? >> one of the things that we did -- we used to be purely organized. we had a head of engineering. one of product. we change things around last year. now there is -- there needs to be an information distribution product or a platform product or an identity product. we put people in charge of these things. before the people in charge of running these products for us were scattered among the product teams.
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now there is a person who owns each one of those. i have basically said, ok, in two years we want to be world class at each of these things, so build your roadmap to get us there. naturally, what a lot of the folks did was the first thing was they took a step back and said, well, i do not have the framework for the infrastructure in place now to get there in two years. there was a lot of rebuilding and retooling. on the mobile side, that was rebuilding the native infrastructure that we built out. because we started at the beginning of this year, that is why the first of the year was slow on product. the next nine months, expect more interesting stuff. i am really excited about that. we did from going having this mobile track, and it went from 90% of t-mobile code being
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committed of the mobile code being committed, to all the chicken groups been decentralized. that is your balance. now we have transitioned. now we are a mobile company. all the code being written is a mobile. >> do you still code? i know even recently you still occasionally would. >> we have a role at facebook that if you check in code you have to maintain your code. i could for fun on the side, but out of respect for other folks and not wanting to be a jerk and make other people maintain my code when something breaks in a meeting and i do not have to be pulled of the management team meeting, i do not check in code to the main branch anymore. >> does mark zuckerberg's code break? >> yes. everything i do breaks. but we fix it quickly. [applause] >> so, you close to the instagram acquisition. >> yes. >> can we talk about that? what are you going to do with it?
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>> they are great. they are the super-talented group of engineers. they are building this amazing product that has crossed 100 million registered users. they are killing it. the way this came together is really interesting. the way i got to know kevin is they started off building on top of our platform. right? they had a great open application, and they could take pictures and you can share them to facebook. it was really first class. sharing a picture from instagram, it looks the same as if you are sharing it from facebook. they did a great job with that. i like to reach out to our developers and get to know them personally. partly because i am really
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interested in entrepreneurship. i spent a lot of time with kevin, and we started to build this road map of all the great things we could do. then this tension started. they got all this great distribution from facebook. and it is a question of how much they want to bet on one company providing a huge amount of their distribution. on the flip side for us, there was the question of we have this list of all things we could do. then there was the question of, ok, we could help them grow, but without the value accruing to us, we probably will get to these things more slowly than ideally we would want to. eventually i just part of the idea to kevin, hey, maybe we should join and become one company and we can do a lot of these things really quickly. we just decided to do it. that is the game plan. we decided to execute on the features we decided earlier. our mission is we think that instagram is amazing and we want to help them grow to hundreds of millions of users. we have no agenda to make them go into our infrastructure.
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we think that is primarily a waste of time. we are trying to do the things that we would have done if they were an open craft partner, but we can do these things more directly. >> i clearly missed time drinking water. >> i just stopped awkwardly. >> you did that on purpose. i have been bugging you about a facebook phone for years. >> did you believe me yet? >> of course i believe you, except i don't. [laughter] i think maybe there is a secret group in facebook that is building hardware phones. it is such a juicy story.
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i am just hoping you can come out and say, we are definitely building a facebook phone. >> that has always been the wrong strategy for us. that is what people have wanted to write. but it is so clearly the wrong strategy for us. we are building this network. we have 950 million users in. it is growing quickly. let's say we build a phone, theoretically. we are not. we could get 10 million people to use it. 20 million. it does not move the needle for us. the strategy we have is different from every major technology company that is building their own hardware. apple, google, samsung, amazon. everyone. we are going in the opposite direction. we want to be as deeply as possible integrated into every major device that people want to use.
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then there are three major platforms for us. there is mobile web, which is huge for us, and no one is more integrated than us on global web. there is no limit. with ios, the strategy is we want to build a great app. it got us to a great fundamental framework. the ios upgrade will be a big step. ios developers will be able to integrate with facebook better. we are in the top-10 ios apps. that is the current stuff. i think it is clunky compared to what we're doing their. android, we can go deep on our own. there are a lot of hooks in android that you can use as a developer. that is the strategy. >> there is no question you spend a lot of time thinking about mobile these days. >> yes. i basically live on my mobile device. you know something funny? you know the founders letter? i wrote that on my phone.
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>> really? you didn't have your lawyers do that? >> no, i wrote it. i do everything on my phone. a lot of people do. a lot of people still use our website. but it is really clear. just with the stats and my own personal intuition and experience. you check in more thinking what is going around you. a lot of the development energy and ecosystem is not going to building the top stuff anymore. we are able to integrate and we
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are helping a lot of folks build great mobile experiences. we just think -- that is the future. we are going to be doing killer stuff there. we want to help them do that. >> you did say you were building a phone then? or no? [laughter] what about search? google + must have made you mad a little bit. >> we do about 1 billion queries a day and we're basically not even trying. search, the vast majority is people trying to find people. but there are people trying to find pages, other business pages, apps.
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a bunch of the does link to commercial behavior. i know there is a big opportunity there at some point and we need to do that the bank but -- and we need to do that. but search is interesting. you have google and bing and you type in key words and it runs magic to tell you what it thinks. i think the search engines are really evolving towards giving you answers. not just showing relevant stuff. i ask a specific question, answer this question for me. you can do it from that perspective. "what sushi restaurants have my friends gone to in new york in the past six months and liked? which of my friends work at a company that i am interesting in working at?" these are queries you could potentially do at facebook if we built up the system that you could not do anywhere else and at some point we will do it. >> do you have a team working on it though? >> we do have a team working on search.
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>> how many engineers are working on it? >> i do not know. there is an ongoing effort for people to find friends and do that officially. that is one kind of obvious thing that would be interesting for us to do in the future if we got to of state where we are excited about it. >> what are other exciting things you might want to do in the future? with facebook? [laughter] >> no, the phone just doesn't make any sense. there are a lot of platforms in excited about. >> let's talk about that for
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second. we are a little overtime. there is zynga. not growing so much anymore. >> yeah, zynga has had a rough few quarters. i think fundamentally they are a strong company. they have had a share on our platform. we have more people playing games on facebook platform that we have in the past. that is a real. right? but the thing i am spending most of my time on now is open graft. when you think about facebook platforms, it should not be about people building apps in our environment. it adds value, but i think the real value is bringing context from apps back to facebook,
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giving people more social context to all the things they are doing. you start to see interesting stuff. other companies are doing interesting stuff. you see examples. runkeeper. a lot of interesting things going on. that is one of the areas i am personally really excited about. all dealers want more distribution. one of the things we did that is on the margin between platform and ads, this is an example of a new way of thinking wary we translate the modernization of our product into the product teams. basically, what it allows you to do as a developer is you can put in, list the different market segments, any targeting that you want, and you can say how much you are willing to pay for and install.
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you can in bed -- embed. we have hundreds of millions people we can put your ad in front of. with a social context. there is great roi for the initial partners. we have not done a full public launch yet, but we have some private testing and it has done really well. this is something any mobile developer can get interested in. the platform is a really good distribution tool that most developers will want to do. >> last question. this is a hard one. are you still having fun? >> yes. but for me, it is not really about fun though. i have a mission. there are times when people think that what we are doing is
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awesome, and usually they are too optimistic. and then there are times when people are super-pessimistic. maybe this is a perverse thing personally, but i would rather be in the cycle where people underestimate us, because i personally would rather be underestimated. i think there is a good latitude to go out and take big bets and do something really exciting and amaze people. >> are people underestimating facebook right now? >> i think a bunch of people are. it is hard for me to say overall. over the long term, there's a huge amount of stuff we are working on. there are all these long term projects i cannot really get into right now, but we are retooling to work on and we are about halfway through that cycle. that is what keeps me going. i just want to build good stuff. when i look back 10, 20 years
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from now, our legacy should be we collected everyone -- we connected everyone in the world and that is a lot. that is fun, exciting, whatever. some days are hard. >> thank you very much. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> online at facebook, we are asking you, how much do you trust companies like facebook and google with your personal information. here's a look at some of your facebook responses that have been presented so far.
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>> join the conversation at facebook.com/cspan. for a different perspective on the internet, a look at a discussion with andrew keen, author of the new book "digital vertigo." he recently sat down for a conversation at the technology institute silicon valley forum. this is 40 minutes. >> thank you. we are your lunchtime entertainment today. i work for cnet, part of cbs. i live happily in the heart of silicon valley. andrew keen is a reliable curmudgeon who makes a living as a professional iconoclast. if it has been celebrated on cnet, the wonders of social
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networking, you can acount on andrew keen to reclaim my everyone else is wrong. he's convinced that 1960's counterculture has taken up residence in silicon valley's latest trends. he is looking for an ankle and has two books out a writ -- he is looking for an angle and has two books coming out. one of the quotes -- our privacy is sacrificed ensuring has become the new silicon valley religion. i presume you're probably in your 50's or close to it, although you look only 40. they just wanted to share. what is wrong with that?
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>> consumers just want to share. at the majority of consumers on the internet have no idea what they are doing in terms of sharing. i have a 14-year-old and he does not understand the way his data is being used and perhaps exploited. one of the challenges we have in silicon valley, i am more of an insider. every show on techcrunch and live in northern california. one of the challenges we have as being more transparent and accountable in the way in which the data on the internet is
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being used and perhaps in some ways exploited. silicon valley reaches the orthodox of openness and transparency to everyone except themselves. the companies that most articulate the orthodoxy of transparency are the two companies were most responsible for misusing data emplane this and this cat and mouse game with consumers over how the data is being used and in some ways exploited. these are real issues. is very troubling to dismiss them by assuming teenagers on the internet or people who just got on line are very much aware in the way in which their data is being used. one of the challenges we have is encouraging or forcing many of the social never to be more explicit and more clear about how they use and did i use the data. terms of service, for example, need to be simplified.
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yet to be a lawyer to understand it. most will do not understand what is, their data on the internet. it is a mass of tissue. >> i did not mean to pay you as an outsider. -- paint you as an outsider. maybe you're better positions than most to critique this. let's move on to web 2.0. you compared it to communism. you have taken aim at a thought leader in this movement. it is "inherently dangerous to coulter and the arts." we have some lobbyists from the recording industry and hollywood in the audience. would you agree with them that we need new copyright laws to stop online privacy -- the on-
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line controversy act. >> i wrote a book that argued the free economy was very problematic in terms of supporting a professional class of writers, musicians, filmmakers on the internet. i showed in the book that as we have the expansion of the internet, obvious in this crisis of the music industry, the closing of newspapers and in pending crisis in publishing. i wrote that in 2007. it was heavily criticized by people who argued i was a reactionary, that i was wrong. in the five years since the book has come out, my position is much stronger than people like chris anderson. i think what this happened over the last five years as it is harder and harder to sell one's products online.
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there is no doubt that piracy is to amass a problem. maybe not quite a big problem now as it was a few years ago. the biggest challenge we had on the internet becomes the dominant platform for the distribution of data content entertainment. the biggest challenge we have is explaining to consumers that they need to pay for the content. whether it is through subscription on spotify or pandora or pay for their music, rather than stealing it. this is the fundamental challenge otherwise we will not have a professional creed of class. amateurs for the most part are
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not very smart in terms of producing viable content. it is easy to see that. just go to wikipedia. it is a good example in a way in which the amateur economy is not able to produce reliable over -- reliable information. it is very problematic. it is not supporting professionals. the issue raised perhaps more relevant today. i know a lot of young musicians, filmmakers, writers, and they are all struggling. austerlitz to make a living. the does that mean we owe them anything. they did not have a right to an income. but we have not figured out the internet economy when it comes to paying the freight of class. we collectively as policy-makers and entrepreneurs and investors have a responsibility to do that. otherwise our newspapers will go away, we will not have professional writers. everyone will be an amateur. everyone will have to wait
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tables in the day and write their books are make their movies in the evening. >> to be puncture some conventional wisdom in washingtonwisdomd.c. politicians brad about not understand technology than voting on laws that regulate technology. you have the former federal trade commissioner sang a few minutes ago that government agencies sue companies sometimes for the wrong reasons. what happens when washington, d.c does something stupid? should we be more worried? >> i think we should be worried about them for opposite reasons. the smartest people in america go to silicon valley. the most brilliant people lived in -- people with intimate america are are the people driving this revolution. the elite now go to the internet. that is with the smart kids go. the mark zuckerbergs, the sheryl sandbergs.
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as much as people did not go into politics. -- the smartest people do not go into politics. i think our challenge in america is figuring out how to get the mark zuckerberg's to not worry about becoming millionaires and worry about becoming politicians and teachers? or politicians who are as pandemic -- who are dynamic entrepreneurs flocking to silicon valley. is the outbreak is? >> i do not think it is outrageous but you are wrong. there is a distinction. i wanted to pose a few more questions before we open it up to the audits and have an argument among ourselves. we heard google's general counsel talking about embracing
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you made snide comments during his speech? >> me? is he here? i cannot be too rude, then. i think there is a problem -- with there are a lot of cults in silicon valley. one of the most interesting is the cult of failure. the idea that people have to continually fail to succeed. one of the promises that he introduced in his speech was the importance of failure. at the keys right. -- i think he is right. but there is a new elite in america where failing is a badge of honor. it was the best thing i did. it enabled me to get a job in my corbett. the challenge we have a in america as figuring out
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culturally how to encourage the disadvantaged. people who've lived somewhere between san francisco and new york. biya to explain to them how to fail. and why failure is so important. we have in america at the moment is increasing dichotomize asian -- dichotimization of people who are deeply entrepreneurial and use the idea of failure to become incredibly successful. the rest of the country that has no grasp of what it means to fail and wife to the duracell fortenberry i'm not saying failure is not important. but i am saying is -- i am not
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saying this year is not important but i am saying there is a parochialism start discussion about philly. most of the world is not listening. most of the world does not understand why failure is important. i guess that's what we need to teach what it means to be an entrepreneur. what it means to be an entrepreneur is taking risks. opening oneself up. that requires a degree of confidence, good education. it comes to some of the core problems facing america. what most worries me is the disappearance of the middle. the internet is a cause and a consequence of this. silicon valley is a cause and a consequence of the disappearance of the middle-class. people who always existed between the elite and the working class. now that middle is evaporating
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and all we have is as narrow elite driving our technology centric economy which is globalized and everybody else. very little in between. >> would you have the same feelings if you are a member of that elite? how bad silicon valley or how fragmented it is? >> i do not think silicon valley is that. amid the point. the smartest people in america are alike zuckerberg. but i think they are diluted. they want to have -- they want to be good and rich. you can either be one of the other. when you listen to mark
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zuckerberg, the young men or not so young anymore at google, when you listen to these silicon valley crowd, it is assumed that we can share, we can improve poverty that africa. it is always the idea that all this technology benefits everyone. that is -- a chris progress -- it creates progress. i do not think that is true. this new elite is no different from any other elite. big data. the big data economy is no different from big farmer. this is the new elite. they are the new land owners, they are controlling power. they will schiff washington, d.c. i do not think are bad but they're not good. they are not improving the world. google has not benefited the
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world. facebook has not benefited the world. generally i am very suspicious of the idiot that you can do good and be very rich at the same time. or successful. >> let me read some more things from your book. even about the narcissism in -- and exoduses and -- and exhibitionism of facebook. we do have one -- we do have some facebook representative in the audience. >> can you reveal yourself, please? all your data. everything about you. can we have a time line? >> there is a bit of hypocrisy on your part. you listed on your blog where you're going to be every day,
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almost every hour. put your twitter screenname on the cover of your book. you're writing by your trips to london and your experiences there. isn't this exhibitionist? >> i grew up a in england. i wrote the book against social networking. particularly against facebook. i gave google the benefit of the doubt in this book. what we did at the publishers,
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we thought let's have some fun. an anti-facebook book but let's put my twitter handle on the front because it would annoy guys like you. my book, it is not against technology. it is not saying we should not be on this network. in the first chapter, i struggle with the issue many of us a struggle with. i have to be on twitter. it built lybrand, it provided to events like this. -- it builds my brand, it provides me to eventslike -- events like this. let me explain. i make the point that this is the reality of our new economy. we are all brands. you're all building our brands on twitter and facebook. that, for better or worse, is
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the reality. in the first chapter, i struggle with it. i say i'm kind of uncomfortable with it. i do not want to tell the world where i am. but at the same time, i need to tell the world where i am. more and more people who use facebook and twitter have this problem. on the one hand, they know they need to be on these networks. on the other hand, they're very uncomfortable with it. they need to teach the kids about it. my book is nothing less trash our iphone, give up our twitter our facebook account. it acknowledges this paradox. he was to be strong individuals in the 21st century, we need to maintain our privacy. we need to maintain our economy. we need to maintain our secrecy. the problem is it is harder and harder to do. that is where you -- if that is what you call hypocrisy, i am a
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hypocrite. but i am no more of a hypocrite than anybody else here. nobody here, i would guess, wants to live completely publicly. no one wants to turn themselves inside out to the everyone knows where they are all the time. >> i cannot argue with that one. you are not clear the hypocrite. maybe a hypocrite. this is still to be proven. let's move onto buzz words. >> i think you can accuse people of being all sorts of things but the one thing that is supposedly a kiss of death is hypocrisy. we are all hypocrites. i would challenge in the one here to stand up and say they're not hypocritical in some way. >> let's move onto buzz words. we were talking about it during the conversation. we have robust, big data disrupted social solutions. in d.c. you have more plastic folder process. >> i said that a lot today.
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what that means what mark >> i am a little lost. which is worse? >> silicon valley. i think they're different sides of the same coin. the problem is the kind of balance. the problem with a silicon valley is that it lacks any kind of regulation. >> that is not true. every major company debt of this audit has been subject to a lawsuit in the investigation and fcc probe. attorney general action. >> ok but there is not in some way.
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in exempla facebook. the cowboy mentality of working outside the law has turned into another thing. it is assumed that is a good thing. that explains the behavior of facebook, particularly around the ipo. the problem we see is it is wallowing, suffocating in legislation. and the obsession with legislating everything. the idea of what is worse. what is worse is a country tied down with red tape. i did a piece on innovation in greece for cnn interviewed in number of entrepreneurs there and they're all complaining about the same thing -- the state ther is deeply cost of renovation. if you are bankrupt in greece,
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you end up in jail. your question seems to suggest what is worse. it does not take silicon valley off the hook because washington, d.c. is mired in problems. >> let's open this up to the audience. we already know there are folks from facebook and google. maybe they can discuss whether or by your hypocrite. >> i am not on facebook. i made a conscious effort. i was a sermon predetermined not to fall into that trap with this book. yvette facebook. dramatically improved my life. i never read about people who irritated me who i did not like. the reality of facebook is the only ever read about people we
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do not like. will france and the post of facebook. -- real friends do not post on facebook. >> your definition of who decreed a class this might be a bit wrong for silicon valley. my view would be there is no silicon left in silicon valley and that the real crisis. thingsnot manufacturing there because it is a hostile place to make things. if you look at where the creed of class is, they get their capital in silicon valley but have to go elsewhere to develop it. i am wondering when you think about that. >> my idea of accretive class is narrower than that. i'm talking bowriders, filmmakers, musicians. -- i am talking about writers, film makers, musicians. that is a broader question of globalization.
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more and more, that is the type of story. it is about globalization. so, i am not really sure what to make of that. you think people should make more things in america? i do not have a problem with apple manufacturing their stuff in china. as long as they conform to standards, we are all good. that has been a big issue, recently. but products manufactured out of america, whether they are designed in silicon valley is 90 here or there. >> if you look at manufacturing output, it keeps going up and up.
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correct -- >> chris anderson is coming out with a book in the fall called "makers." argues that manufacturing will be democratized. it is really interesting. i am not sure that i agree, but this fichu of the next democratized wave of industrial revolution will change the way in which many products kit manufactured. you would see more and more stories about how small manufacturing concerns are much
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more attractive to investors. i think we might be on the cusp of a new kind of renaissance when it comes to manufacturing and the way in which the factory has been democratized by technology. on the other hand, it also leads all the problems the internet has created. problems of the crisis of toy manufacturers, car manufacturers. the manufacturing elite, which dominated the global industrial economy in the 19th and 20th century is about to be hit by the same tsunami that hit the media industry in the 1990's and it is going to be even bloodier, more traumatic, and more interesting. >> in the back, then someone in the front. please. >> thank you. i am from the center of policy emerging technologies.
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i would be very interested to hear how you see the future trending on this question of the contrasting cultures. the most important pieces of realistic in the world are these import -- these circumscribed communities. it seems that getting any kind of communication between them is the driver of the future. how do you see things trending so that one can predict in five years or 10 years the direction of the legislation and political issues in washington? which you have so firmly and clearly described in charcoal. >> well, i think that the
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political system in america is archaic. archaic for many different reasons. for its static, hierarchical relationships between business and politicians in the way it attempts to manipulate media and the way that identity is presented. silicon valley will not change. it may remain as an idea, it may remain as a driving force in the american economy, but washington, d.c. has to change. the change will come through democratization and radicalization of the political process, like the policy party in europe. creating political movements
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outside the traditional process. in some respects, that is a great thing. on the other hand, what i'm most fear is the way in which leaders can leverage the internet in this democratized procession to create movements of rage. you are already seeing it in greece right now. it is premature finance and driven by the internet. if america was to experience the same kind of economic crisis has happened in greece, or spain, i would feeler the way that these leaders will leverage the internet to create movement. you have already seen this in the way that people get picked up. there is this mob mentality, particularly on networks like twitter. perhaps depending on the economic future of this country,
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what i would say is that washington, dc test change. it is so out of step, not so much with the rest of america but with the rest of the world, it cannot help but change. >> question, please? >> you are? >> herald, with public knowledge. >> he is a troublemaker. >> i was one of those less brilliant people that went to washington rather than silicon valley. >> harold, you are the example, the counterexample. if there was more herald in washington, d.c., we would not be worrying so much about it. >> that is what i wanted to ask you about. one of the problem is that leads
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to that mob mentality that you were talking about is we have spent a good 34 or so years undermining the legitimacy of every non-mob violence way of resolving our differences. >> what do you mean by that? >> i mean we used to pride ourselves on being a country with rule of law that by and large we trusted to it least have the interests that were successful or not. finding a way to resolve the differences so that the cars did not blow up unexpectedly.
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addressing environmental problems, such as having clean water and ports that they trusted to resolve where they were not happy with the results, but there was a sense that they had a good alternative to getting everyone together on facebook and trying to intimidate people into doing something different. the question that i have is -- the fcc should be eliminated because we do not think they do a good job? >> i would have to deter. >> congress calls all politics is untrue -- intrinsically a waste of time? policies appointed to the , the one thing that we apparently trust is 100,000 people on facebook who can get
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verizon to change how they handle the bill. my concern is -- how do we reestablished trust in those institutions so that people who are smart and talented would have the interest in wanting to serve their in the first place? >> you have me. >> a lot of people have said that. the thing it is the altitude. >> -- i think it is the altitude. >> one of the things i have tried to bring out in my work is the neutrality of the internet. a lot of people think it was delivered by a stork in the middle of the night. this wonderful, free thing where we could express ourselves, but it is the consequence of the things you are talking about.
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the failure of political elite, the crisis of the two-party political system. much of it is justified, from banking to pharmaceuticals. often i think people say that the internet is great because it allows us to have a voice. it allows us to challenge government. what they misunderstand is that the internet was created by the very people who resisted the old establishment. the people that did not go to washington, d.c.. they went to communes in northern california. the issue is less structural and deals with the core problem in american history, which is the lack of legitimacy for politics and political protest.
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until people can be proud to enter politics, people liked zuckerberg and sandberg are going to go to silicon valley and not washington, d.c. it is a deeper problem. >> i could take one more quick question with a quick response. >> how quick? >> 60 seconds? >> it had better be a good question. >> no pressure. >> i am at university. >> tell me about that. >> [unintelligible] the problem of educating people between silicon valley and new york, they think that silicon valley and in tech crunch.
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people who would be great political people in d.c. now want to move to silicon valley. >> right. you are blaming the messenger. you are saying people read the new york times or tech crunch, and they are seduced into being entrepreneurs. again, tech crunch is a reflection of our deeper culture. the new rock stars of our age -- in 1960's, people wanted to be paul mccartney or john lennon or mick jagger. this is good in some ways. and guys like zuckerberg deserve to be rock stars. they are very charismatic. they're very brilliant. our job is to make them more accountable. steve jobs is the metaphor of our age in the best and worst ways.
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he managed to invent and reinvent himself and become the most voluble company in the world. no respect for any democracy, any kind of democracy. never gave money to a political interest. we have to understand the entrepreneur is the central, cultural figure. not just an economic figure. it is a cultural figure. and programs like tech crunch are reflecting that reality. we did not create zuckerberg. until we begin to understand accountability and the responsibility of these new relationships, these child entrepreneurs and billionaires' are going to be much poorer for it. >> and that will be the last word. thank you. thank you to the technology policy institute for organizing
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this. and andrew, thank you for being a good sport. >> thank you for being so right. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> online on facebook, we are asking you how much you trust companies like facebook and bull with your personal information. a look at some of your face with responses that have been posted so far.
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>> you can post comments and leave responses for other viewers. all day long we are looking at the anniversary commemoration of the antietam national battlefield. it is the 150th anniversary. our programming has been going on live all day. you can call in and get a chance to talk to some of our guests.
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coming up in the 3:00 hour, a howard university history professor and co-author. remarks from the author of lincoln and the triumph of the nation. live programming goes until 8:00 p.m. and then we will be air -- american history program at a 30 p.m. >> i think people like to see where politicians views have shifted over the years. at the people like to see whether mitt romney in 1994 was campaigning for welfare reform or against well for -- welfare reform. i think people like to see how these politicians have evolved. day -- there is an element that
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is almost, people say this is incredibly interesting. >> i have tried to think why it is that he is changed so often. what he finds it's a difficult to come down one side of an issue and instead floats between both issues. >> someone running for state officer for the first time, does it help your name is barack obama? >> the best way to describe it is the by role beating heart of the internet. >> sunday at 8:00 pm on "q & a." >> we can keep investing in wind and solar and clean coal and biofuel.
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our construction workers can build homes and factories that waste less energy and retrofit old buildings. put them back to work. >> i will take advantage of our oil, our coal, our gas, our nuclear. north america will be energy independence within 8 years. >> watch and engage with c-span as the presidential campaigns moves toward the october debates. kennedy policy is likely one of the topics for the october 3 debate. it will be a town hall format on tuesday, october 16. also, watch the vice presidential candidates' debate on thursday, october of 11. and coverage of key house and senate races, looking at the control of congress. c-span, c-span radio and online at c-span.org.
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>> on friday, the president, vice president, and secretary of state traveled to participate in the dignified transfer of remains ceremony. this is database and choose. the four were victims of the u.s. consulate attack in libya on tuesday. this is just over 30 minutes.
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♪ ♪
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>> let us pause for a moment of silence. let us pray. gracious god, on behalf of a grateful nation and in the
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presence of grieving family members and colleagues, we welcome home for the final time ambassador chris stevens, sean smith, glen doherty, and tyrone woods. we give you thanks for the lives and the service of these men who wanted nothing more than to make a difference in the lives of other people. to bring justice and freedom to others, who possessed not only character and resolve, but courage and good will. we mourn their loss. bless the memories of these men through those who knew and loved them, especially their families, for whom we ask your comfort, your divine care, and your piece in this difficult time. on this occasion, we continue to pray for our nation and its leaders.
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we asked your blessing on all who served on the military and civilian. we pray for our nation's people. we pray for the defeat of the terror and evil that seems to plague our planet. we pray earnestly for peace. creator of all, let's like perpetual shine upon chris, sean, glen, and tyrone. amen. you may be seated. ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to present to you the secretary of state, hillary clinton. >> thank you very much, a chaplain. mr. president, mr. vice
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president, secretary panetta, family members, members of the state department family, ladies and gentlemen, today, we bring home four americans who gave their lives for our country and our values. to the families of our fallen colleagues, i offer our most heartfelt condolences and deepest gratitude. sean smith joined the state department after six years in the air force. he was respected as an expert on technology by colleagues in baghdad, montreal, and the hague.
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he enrolled in correspondence courses at penn state and had high hopes for the future. sean leaves behind a loving wife, heather, two young children, and scores of grieving family, friends, and colleagues. that is just in this world. online, in the virtual world that he helped to create, he is also being mourned by countless competitors, collaborators, and gamerse who shared his passion. tyrone woods, is known to most as rone, spent two decades as a navy seal, serving multiple tours in iraq and afghanistan.
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since 2010, he protected american diplomatic personnel in dangerous posts from central america to the middle east. he had the hands of a healer as well as the arms of a warrior. earning distinction as a registered nurse and certified paramedic. our hearts go out to to his wife and his three sons. along with his grieving family, friends, and colleagues. glen doherty was also a former seal and an experienced paramedic. he died protecting his
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colleagues. he was employed to some of the most dangerous places on earth, including iraq and afghanistan, always putting his life on to safeguard other americans. our thoughts and prayers are with his father, his mother, his brother, and sister, and their grieving families, friends, and colleagues. i was honored to know ambassador chris stevens. i want to thank his parents and siblings who are here today for sharing chris with us and with their country. what a wonderful gift you gave us.
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over his distinguished career in the foreign service, he won friends to the united states in far-flung places. he made those people's hopes his own. during the revolution in libya, he risked his life to help protect the libyan people from a tyrant. he gave his life helping them build a better country. people loved to work with him. as he rose through the ranks, they loved to work forehand. he was known not only for his courage, but for his smile. goofy, but contagious.
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for his sense of fun and that california cool. in the days since the attack, so many libyans, including the ambassador, who is with us today, have expressed their sorrow and solidarity. one young woman, her head covered and her eyes haunted with sadness, held up a handwritten sign that said "thugs and killers do not represent a benghazi or islam."
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the president of the palestinian authority, who worked closely with chris sent me a letter of remembering his energy and integrity and deploring "an act of ugly terror." many others from across the middle east and africa have offered similar sentiments. this has been a difficult week for the state department's and for our country. we have seen the heavy assault on our post in benghazi bad took lives of those brave men. we have seen rage and violence directed at american embassies over an awful internet video that we had nothing to do it. it is hard for the american people to make sense of that because it is senseless. it is totally unacceptable. the people of egypt, libya, yemen, and tunisia did not trade the tyranny of the dictator for the tyranny of a mob.
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reasonable people and responsible leaders in these countries need to do everything they can to restore security and hold accountable those behind these violent acts. we will, under the president's leadership, keep taking steps to protect our personnel around the world. there will be more difficult days ahead, but it is important that we do not decide of the fundamental fact that america must keep leading the world. we owe it to those four men to continue the long, hard work of diplomacy. i am enormously proud of the men and women of the state department. i am proud of all those across our government, civilian and military ally, who represented erech of broad. -- who represent america abroad. if the last few days teach us
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anything, let it be this. this worked, and the men and women who risked their lives to do it, or at the heart of what makes america great and good. we will wipe away our tears, stiffen our spine, and face the future undaunted. and we will do it together. protecting and helping one another, it just like sean, tyrone, glen, and chris always did.
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may god bless them and grant their families peace and solace. may god continue to bless the united states of america. let's we have a great honor of the injured -- let me have a great honor of introducing someone who came to the state department earlier this week to grieve with us. he understands and values the work that these men were doing for our country. the president of the united states. >> the scripture teaches us
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greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. glen doherty never shied from adventure. he believed he could make a difference. he served with distinction in iraq and afghanistan. in benghazi, he laid down his life. today, glen is home. tyrone woods devoted 20 years of his life to the seals. the quiet professional. rone also served in iraq and afghanistan. in benghazi, he was far from dorothy and tyrone jr. and he
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laid down his life, protecting his friends. today, he is home. sean smith, it seems, lives to serve. first in the air force, and then in the state department. he knew the perils of his calling from his time in baghdad. far from home, he thought of his family. he laid down his life in service to us all. today, sean is home. chris stevens was everything america could want in an ambassador as the whole country has come to see.
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i first went to the region as a young man in the peace corps. he arrived in libya on that cargo ship. how he believed in libya and the people and how they loved him back. he laid down his life for his friends. , libya and american, for us all. today, chris is home. four americans, four patriots. they loved this country. they chose to serve it, and served it well. they had a mission and they believe in it. they knew the danger to and accepted it. they did not simply embrace the american ideal. they lived it. they embody it.
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-- embodied it. the courage, the hope, and the idealism. a fundamental american belief that we can leave this world a little better than before. that is who they were. that is who we are. if we want to truly honor their memory, it is who we must always be. i know that this awful loss, terrible images of recent days, the pictures we are seeing again today, has caused some to question this work. there is no doubt these are difficult days. in moments such as this. , even the most hopeful among us
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must wonder. amid all the images this week, i think of the libyans who took to the streets with homemade signs expressing their gratitude to an american who believes in what we could achieve together. i think of a man in benghazi with his sign in english. it said, "chris stevens to all libyans. chris stevens was a friend of her crate -- a friend." that is the message each of you send every day, civilians, military, people in every corner of the world. america is a friend. we care not just about our own country, not just about our own interests, but about theirs. even as voices of suspicion and mistrust seek to divide countries and cultures from one
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another, the united states of america will never retreat from the world. we will never stop working for the dignity and freedom that every person deserves, whatever their creed, whatever their faith. that is the essence of american leadership. that is the spirit that sets us apart from other nations. this was their work in benghazi and this is the work we will carry on. to you, their families and colleagues, to all americans, know this. their sacrifice will never be forgotten. we will bring to justice those who took them from us. we will stand fast against the violence on our diplomatic missions.
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we will continue to do everything in our power to protect americans serving overseas, where the that means increasing security at our diplomatic posts, working with host countries, which is an obligation to provide security, to make it clear that justice will come to those who harm americans. most of all, even in our grief, we will be resolute. we are americans. we hold our head high. theseing that because of patriots, because of you, this country that we love will always shine a light onto the world. greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. the flag they served under now carries them home. god bless the man -- the memory
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of these men who lay down their lives for us all. god watch over their families and all who love them. god bless this united states of america. >> before our benediction, we will stand together for the playing of the national anthem as we render them to the nation that they loved and for which they died.
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[national anthem plays] ♪
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>> let us pray. might god, creator of us all and lover of the human race. when command to use these men into your hands. received them, deliver them from all here. strengthen them in your presence, and give them your piece. -- peace. amen.
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♪ ["my country tis of thee" plays ]
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>> i think people like to see where politicians views have shifted over the years. at the people like to see whether mitt romney in 1994 was campaigning for welfare reform or against well for -- welfare reform. i think people like to see how these politicians have evolved. day -- there is an element that is almost, people say this is incredibly interesting. >> i have tried to think why it is that he is changed so often. what he finds it's a difficult to come down one side of an issue and instead floats between both issues. >> someone running for state officer for the first time, does it help your name is barack obama?
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>> the best way to describe it is the by role beating heart of the internet. >> both chambers of congress return to session next week, but not until after rosh hashana on monday. on the agenda next week, a resolution of disapproval and at blocking the obama administration's recent changes to the welfare law. also a package of environmental and energy bills and at boosting job creation. the senate gavels in at 10:00 a.m. on wednesday.
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there will be a measure to give veterans priority in hiring for federal jobs. last thursday, the house passed a resolution to fund the government for six months starting october 1. on friday, the american enterprise institute hosted a discussion on the violent demonstrations in egypt and yemen. panelists said those demonstrations were expected to continue. he then comes three days after chris stevens, the u.s. ambassador to libya along with three others were killed in an attack on the u.s. consulate in benghazi. >> good morning, everybody. i am the vice president for foreign defense policy at the american enterprise institute. i am delighted to have two good
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friends join me this morning for a discussion of what has been a point on in libya, egypt c, and more broadly about the middle east. we put this together quickly and i am grateful for my colleagues to join me. we have been bureau chief of al arabia. brian is a senior fellow at the center for american progress, a think tank here in washington. we are going to try to follow a slightly different format. we are sitting a little bit more talk-show like. we are going to try to have a conversation. i hope we will be able to involve you after we began a little bit. i will turn to my colleagues and ask them to talk a little about what has been going on. the news this morning is that
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demonstrations are continuing throughout the region. we have gotten an apology from the president of egypt. it was long in coming. there have been four arrests made in libya there is also a little bit of a political furor going on in our country. with less short introduction i will ask brian -- with that short introduction, i will ask brian to start us off. >> we have always had great exchanges. it is wonderful to be here. your intellect and your spirit is wonderful. you help us understand a complex region of the world. i want to make three brief points and we will have a
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conversation. i wanted to offer a brief overview, a clinical, strategic overview of when the region is right now. we get caught up in episodes and we have a tactical, reactive crisis management type of debate. i think we need to stay engaged in the middle east. i will try to do this in two or three minutes, but it may run into five. we are 18 months or more into a transition that will take years to go underway. i have been disinclined against these labels of arab spring or awakenings and things like this. uprisings in some parts of our region are much
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the vast majority have not seen major change. sometimes, we leave those to the side in the gulf region. this transition may go on for a long time because of the demographic, economic, and political challenges. if you think this week was difficult, expect more of this for the rest of this decade. we are in for a prolonged challenge in the middle east. this change in the middle east will further contribute to the complex multi clarity and
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competition -- multipolarity. the rise of turkey, iran is up and down. it is quite complicated. there are these labels of shia versus sunni. in my view, we are in the early stages of this process. more of this is coming. what do we do about it. despite the region in change, he was interests remain quite the same. preserving the flow of energy resources out of the region. preventing major wars, particularly cross border conflicts. stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction. we have men and women doing this every day. we need to continue to stay
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engaged. given the complexity of the region, i understand the pragmatic approach that has been adopted over the last two years or so. three things we need to do. we need to continue our investment in regional security, including a strong u.s. military footprints we should not forget this in the turmoil within these countries. it is essential that the u.s. is the leader in the region. nobody has the will or the capability to do what we can do in the region. china is not going to do it. we need to continually adapt that footprint. we say we should just retreat. i should -- i disagree with that. it is about how we use that power. we need to maintain vigilance on the counterterrorism front.
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he libya events further underscore this a bit. we have seen an aggressive counter terrorism campaign in yemen and other places. last but not least, i think this is the hardest for americans. we need to invest in other types of u.s. leadership and power. we talk about smart power. we need to invest more in that. the u.s. should take some time. i got up early and read some accounts of ambassador christopher stevens and sean smith and the two navy seals. take some time to read about their lives, especially ambassador stevens. what a major source of american power and influence he was in helping figure out the economic dynamics, the islamists who
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wanted to run an election versus those who wanted to kill us. we need more of that. i stress that right now because that is where the real debate is or should be in this country. when i hear calls from capitol hill about cutting the budget for the state department and other things, that is a recipe for weakness and withdrawal of leadership. that me close here. there is a lot i would like to say. i have been implementing this vision for these ideas of what we need to do next. it is easier said than done. first of all, one of the big challenges we will face as a country no matter who wins the election in november is how we refocus. there is a recognition that the strategic power game is shifting. there is not much of a dispute
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that we need to focus more on that. as somebody who live in the middle east for five years, we need to stay engaged with the leaders there. how do we execute that rebalance diplomatically while attending to our responsibilities in leadership in that part of the world? how do we actually stay in the game when islams who win elections do not say the things we would like them to say? i did not want to get too political here. i would debate matters here at home, how we talk about things. but it is concerned -- my biggest concern is not the rhetoric. i worry about the politics that say we should cut out of this
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and start investing in things like the state department or aid to egypt. we should think about how we calibrate it to create incentives for business. that is where the real debate is. this is not a partisan statement. people will look at this complex region of the world and throw their hands up and say, we cannot do anything about it. as understand that frustration, especially after we have gone into libya and helped people and you see what happens. we need to stick with it. i get it. i disagree with people who say this is not a time for politics. in a democracy, there is always a time for politics. it elevates everybody else's thinking about what the challenges are. in the first couple of days, it has not been that.
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hopefully, other discussions can not sit up a level. -- notch it up a level. >> terrific, brian. i want to talk a little bit about the region and what has been going on. i know you will talk about egypt as well and about the specifics of this issue. you all can remind me. i do want to talk about aid. i want to talk about rebalancing. rebalancing has come to mean a retreat. when i say retreat, i do not mean military retreat. we are turning our backs on the region. we are not paying enough attention, especially the changing countries, the arab spring, whatever it is, these countries that are transforming before our eyes. lots to talk about in american policy. let's talk about the region. let's talk specifically about
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what we really think is going on. is this all about a 13 minutes fell, the outrage and a front 3? -- effrontery? a film that i haven't seen and most of them have not seen. >> this is about politics and power. especially among the various economic groups in the region. i do not want to talk much about u.s. policy. i agree with brian and you. i always remember what madeleine albright said. i would argue that diplomacy is always -- is more dispensable -- diplomacy is more indispensable
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than before. it is true that the transition has just begun in terms of history. it is going to take a long time. excuse me for quoting a narxust -- marxist. it was said that sometimes decade passed and nothing happens and sometimes, in weeks, decades happen. i would say that statement and say, the condition will take years. we are dealing with something where politics was -- politics were wiped out many years. civil society was suffocated. they were insulted by the state. all of these groups that you would think would be our allies , and democrats, liberals, were
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crushed or neutralized, which left the political space for islamists. in all of these countries that went to the uprisings, there is a huge debate and conflict among the various islamists. it is an islamist spectrum. they have moved to the right. the political debate about the form of government for egypt or tunisia is taking place between people who are atavistic and reactionary in the extreme. with me start with the caveat.
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i do not believe there is islamist groups can become a democrat unless they undergrowth a -- undergo a tremendous transformation. these are the debates that are taking place in the arab world. our people feel each of has been abandoned. if you talk to the students who began the transformation, they feel abandoned. they level very legitimate critique against the administration here.
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they did not talk to them, boycotted them. there is a lot of truth in this. it would be a great mistake if we eliminate those informers. the people who believe that it is in their own interest to have good relationships. these people should not be eliminated. this is a grave mistake. the other thing that is taking place, which feeds into the sense of frustration and marginal as asian -- marginal as if you look at the
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game of states in the middle east, what do you see? i would argue began with mubarak egypt was the bellwether of the arab world. egypt today could not influence events in gaza when mubarak was around. egypt cannot influence china. he did tonight cannot compete with turkey, cannot -- egypt today cannot compete with turkey, iran. if you look at syria, the two powers who are competing are not arabs. the turks and the iranians. if you look at iraq, the two
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powers trying to shape the immediate future are not arabs. they are iran and turkey. there is a weakness of leadership in the arab world. saudi arabia, the decision making process is very slow. morocco is far away. algeria is still trying to sort out its bloody civil war. we have a sense of malaise, weakness, vulnerability. here comes the islamists, who are excellent at exploiting this sense of marginalization. what is taking place is political, not religious.
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these are people who are being exploited and used and the sad reality is today, egypt, he is allowing this to take place. allowing or encouraging the use of egypt to -- youth of egypt to vent their wrath on the american bogeyman. unemployment, problems with minorities, security and sinai, egypt has tremendous problems. yesterday, i was so angry,
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hundreds of people die every day, hundreds in places like syria, yemen, iraq, somalia, pakistan, and afghanistan. i did not see recently somebody calling from a day of rage. to object to this muslim violence. now you look at the map today, even cats are today, a small group of people are demonstrating against the american embassy. nobody is calling for a day of rate for those victims who are being killed in these countries. is wereay, 5 yemenia thi
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killed. i was appalled when i read the facebook of morsi 24 times -- 24 times -- 24 hours after the bombing -- the storming of the embassy in cairo. i cast my embassy in washington to take a bigger action against the people who produced the movie. in passing, he says, as a government, we are responsible for the protection of private and public property. no mention of the american embassy, no expression of sorrow or condemnation.
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it was appalling. this is the man who acts as if it is still underground in the opposition and not the responsible leader of 75 million people. the head of the administration -- the obama administration, the way they called for mubarak to leave, this is the country that stopped the military. i remember interviewing the joint chiefs of staff. he said to me, do not use violence. after the elections, you remember, there was some talk about the military undermining the election.
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we want the process to take place. in many ways, one could argue this man owes his position to the americans. yet he was showing this kind of reaction. the united states should be clear on this issue. i do not want to withdraw from the middle east. we should focus on the people we should invest in, people in the egyptian society deserve our support. embassies can not be stormed. i hate to see an american official every time an egyptian and the united states -- this forces the secretary of state and the present to give you a lecture about islam or religion or about the political system.
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this is not the issue. every time we do that, they deal with this issue and say, we will talk about religion. we're talking about power, people exploiting the atmosphere in the region. the intellectuals -- watched egyptian television. you can find them on youtube. the poisonous, the nemesis attacks there taking place against the christian community in egypt. full of incitement, these are the people responsible. the political leadership is responsible. the appointed custodians of the religion of islam. they have nothing to do with the religion of islam.
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most of them are hungry for political power. >> thank you very much. i want to pull you back to this quick question about playing on the religious turf. we have not talked enough about this. i do not want to put you in a position as a foreign correspondent of making recommendations to the american government, but how we are perceived and how the statements are made here are perceived as very important. what did said when the sensible reason for the storming of and an embassy, even if we recognize that is nothing other than a pretext, what should we be saying when a sensible reason is some movie that defames the prophet? what is going to send the right message?
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>> i would expect that the ambassador in cairo would say something. the secretary of state and the president, to be engaged, just because he is within the frenzy of a crowd, it lists sides of the issue. i would expect the president and secretary state to be very careful. i remember when george bush -- he used the word crusade when he meant the word campaign. when i translated this, he said this is a campaign. some correspondence and there on purpose translated as crusade. it means you have a sword in one hand and a crucifix in the
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other. when bush used the phrase islamist fascism, that was not smart. smart.